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Gorgias

Perseus Greek · Perseus Greek · 1,107 sections

1. 476.22

   I do agree.

2. 476.23

   Then this being admitted, is paying the penalty suffering something, or doing it?

3. 476.24

   Suffering it must be, Socrates.

4. 476.25

   And at the hands of an agent?

5. 476.26

   Yes, of course; at the hands of the punisher.

6. 476.27

   And he who punishes aright punishes justly?

7. 476.28

   Yes.

8. 476.29

   Doing what is just, or not?

9. 476.30

   What is just.

10. 476.31

    And he who pays the penalty by being punished suffers what is just?

11. 476.32

    Apparently.

12. 476.33

    And what is just, I think we have agreed, is fair?

13. 476.34

    Certainly.

14. 476.35

    Then of these two, the one does what is fair and the other, he who is punished, suffers it.

15. 476.36

    Yes.

16. 477.1

    And so, if fair, good? For that is either pleasant or beneficial.

17. 477.2

    It must be so.

18. 477.3

    So he who pays the penalty suffers what is good?

19. 477.4

    It seems so.

20. 477.5

    Then he is benefited?

21. 477.6

    Yes.

22. 477.7

    Is it the benefit I imagine—that he becomes better in soul if he is justly punished?

23. 477.8

    Quite likely.

24. 477.9

    Then is he who pays the penalty relieved from badness of soul?

25. 477.10

    Yes.

26. 477.11

    And so relieved from the greatest evil? Look at it this way; in a man’s pecuniary resources do you perceive any other badness than poverty?

27. 477.12

    No, only poverty.

28. 477.13

    And what in his bodily resources? You would say that badness there is weakness or disease or ugliness or the like?

29. 477.14

    I would.

30. 477.15

    And in soul too you believe there is a certain wickedness?

31. 477.16

    Of course.

32. 477.17

    And do you not call this injustice, ignorance, cowardice, and so forth?

33. 477.18

    Certainly I do.

34. 477.19

    So now in property, body, and soul, these three, you have mentioned three vices—poverty, disease, and injustice?

35. 477.20

    Yes.

36. 477.21

    Then which of these vices is the foulest? Is it not injustice—in short, the vice of the soul?

37. 477.22

    Far the foulest.

38. 477.23

    And if foulest, then also most evil?

39. 477.24

    How do you mean, Socrates?

40. 477.25

    Just this: the foulest is foulest in each case because it produces the greatest pain or harm or both; this follows from our previous admissions.

41. 477.26

    Quite so.

42. 477.27

    And foulest of all, we have just agreed, is injustice and, in general, vice of soul?

43. 477.28

    Yes, we have.

44. 477.29

    So then either it is most painful, that is, foulest of these vices by an excess of painfulness, or else of harmfulness, or in both ways?

45. 477.30

    Necessarily.

46. 477.31

    Then do you think that being unjust, licentious, cowardly, and ignorant is more painful than being poor and sick?

47. 477.32

    No, I do not, Socrates, from what we have said.

48. 477.33

    Portentous then must be the extent of harm, and astonishing the evil, by which the soul’s vice exceeds all the others so as to be foulest of all, since it is not by pain, on your view of the matter.

49. 477.34

    Apparently.

50. 477.35

    But further, I suppose, whatever has an excess of harm in the greatest measure, must be the greatest evil in the world.

51. 477.36

    Yes.

52. 477.37

    So injustice, licentiousness, and in general, vice of soul, are the greatest evils in the world?

53. 477.38

    Apparently.

54. 477.39

    Now what is the art that relieves from poverty? Is it not money-making?

55. 477.40

    Yes.

56. 477.41

    And what from disease? Is it not medicine?

57. 478.1

    It must be.

58. 478.2

    And what from wickedness and injustice? If you are not ready for that offhand, consider it thus: whither and to whom do we take those who are in bodily sickness?

59. 478.3

    To the doctor, Socrates.

60. 478.4

    And whither the wrongdoers and libertines?

61. 478.5

    To the law-court, do you mean?

62. 478.6

    Yes, and to pay the penalty?

63. 478.7

    I agree.

64. 478.8

    Then is it not by employing a kind of justice that those punish who punish aright?

65. 478.9

    Clearly so.

66. 478.10

    Then money-making relieves us from poverty, medicine from disease, and justice from licentiousness and injustice.

67. 478.11

    Apparently.

68. 478.12

    Which then is the fairest of these things?

69. 478.13

    Of what things, pray?

70. 478.14

    Moneymaking, medicine, justice.

71. 478.15

    Justice, Socrates, is far above the others.

72. 478.16

    Now again, if it is fairest, it causes either most pleasure or benefit or both.

73. 478.17

    Yes.

74. 478.18

    Well then, is it pleasant to be medically treated, and do those who undergo such treatment enjoy it?

75. 478.19

    I do not think so.

76. 478.20

    But it is beneficial, is it not?

77. 478.21

    Yes.

78. 478.22

    Because one is relieved of a great evil, and hence it is worth while to endure the pain and be well.

79. 478.23

    Of course.

80. 478.24

    Is this then the happiest state of body for a man to be in—that of being medically treated—or that of never being ill at all?

81. 478.25

    Clearly, never being ill.

82. 478.26

    Yes, for what we regarded as happiness, it seems, was not this relief from evil, but its non-acquisition at any time.

83. 478.27

    That is so.

84. 478.28

    Well now, which is the more wretched of two persons who have something evil either in body or in soul, he who is medically treated and is relieved of the evil, or he who is not treated and keeps it?

85. 478.29

    To my thinking, he who is not treated.

86. 478.30

    And we found that paying the penalty is a relief from the greatest evil, wickedness?

87. 478.31

    We did.

88. 478.32

    Because, I suppose, the justice of the court reforms us and makes us juster, and acts as a medicine for wickedness.

89. 478.33

    Yes.

90. 478.34

    Happiest therefore is he who has no vice in his soul, since we found this to be the greatest of evils.

91. 478.35

    Clearly so.

92. 478.36

    Next after him, I take it, is he who is relieved of it.

93. 478.37

    So it seems.

94. 478.38

    And that was the man who is reproved, reprimanded, and made to pay the penalty.

95. 478.39

    Yes.

96. 478.40

    Hence the worst life is led by him who has the vice and is not relieved of it.

97. 478.41

    Apparently.

98. 479.1

    And this is the man who in committing the greatest wrongs and practicing the greatest injustice has contrived to escape reproof and chastisement and penalty alike, as you say Archelaus has succeeded in doing, and the rest of the despots and orators and overlords?

99. 479.2

    So it seems.

100. 479.3

     Because, I conceive, my excellent friend, what these persons have contrived for themselves is very much as though a man who was the victim of the worst diseases should contrive not to submit to the doctor’s penalty for his bodily transgressions and take the prescribed treatment, from a childish fear of cautery or incision, as being so painful. Or do you not agree to this view of it?

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Perseus Greek. CTS URN tlg0059.tlg023.perseus-eng2. Via the Perseus Digital Library / Open Greek and Latin TEI corpora. Licence: CC BY-SA 4.0. Source.