Alcibiades 1

Perseus Greek · Perseus Greek · 901 sections

125.7
Soc. Then is the shoemaker intelligent in the making of foot-gear?
125.8
Alc. Certainly.
125.9
Soc. So he is good in that article?
125.10
Alc. Good.
125.11
Soc. Well now, is not the shoemaker unintelligent in the making of clothes?
125.12
Alc. Yes.
125.13
Soc. So he is bad in that?
125.14
Alc. Yes.
125.15
Soc. Then, on this showing, the same man is both bad and good.
125.16
Alc. Apparently.
125.17
Soc. Well, can you say that good men are also bad?
125.18
Alc. No, indeed.
125.19
Soc. But whoever do you mean by the good?
125.20
Alc. I mean those who are able to rule in the city.
125.21
Soc. Not, I presume, over horses?
125.22
Alc. No, no.
125.23
Soc. But over men?
125.24
Alc. Yes.
125.25
Soc. When they are sick?
125.26
Alc. No.
125.27
Soc. Or at sea?
125.28
Alc. I say, no.
125.29
Soc. Or harvesting?
125.30
Alc. No.
125.31
Soc. Doing nothing, or doing something?
125.32
Alc. Doing something, I say.
125.33
Soc. Doing what? Try and let me know.
125.34
Alc. Well, men who do business with each other and make use of one another, as is our way of life in our cities.
125.35
Soc. Then you speak of ruling over men who make use of men?
125.36
Alc. Yes.
125.37
Soc. Over boatswains who make use of rowers?
125.38
Alc. No, no.
125.39
Soc. Because that is the pilot’s distinction?
125.40
Alc. Yes.
125.41
Soc. Well, do you mean ruling over men who are flute-players, and who lead the singing and make use of dancers?
125.42
Alc. No, no.
125.43
Soc. Because, again, that is the chorus-teacher’s function?
125.44
Alc. To be sure.
125.45
Soc. But whatever do you mean by being able to rule over men who make use of men?
125.46
Alc. I mean ruling over men in the city who share in it as fellow-citizens, and do business with each other.
125.47
Soc. Well, what art is this? Suppose I should ask you over again, as I did just now, what art makes men know how to rule over fellow-sailors?
125.48
Alc. The pilot’s.
125.49
Soc. And what knowledge—to repeat what was said a moment ago—makes them rule over their fellow-singers?
125.50
Alc. That which you just mentioned, the chorus-teacher’s.
125.51
Soc. Well now, what do you call the knowledge of one’s fellow-citizens?
125.52
Alc. Good counsel, I should say, Socrates.
125.53
Soc. Well, and is the pilot’s knowledge evil counsel?
125.54
Alc. No, no.
125.55
Soc. Rather good counsel?
126.1
Alc. So I should think, for the preservation of his passengers.
126.2
Soc. Quite right. And now, for what is the good counsel of which you speak?
126.3
Alc. For the better management and preservation of the city.
126.4
Soc. And what is it that becomes present or absent when we get this better management and preservation? If, for example, you should ask me, What is it that becomes present or absent when the body is better managed and preserved?—I should reply, Health becomes present, and disease absent. Do not you think so too?
126.5
Alc. Yes.
126.6
Soc. And if, again, you asked me, What becomes present in a better condition of the eyes?—I should answer in just the same way, Sight becomes present, and blindness absent. So, in the case of the ears, deafness is caused to be absent, and hearing to be present, when they are improved and getting better treatment.
126.7
Alc. Correct.
126.8
Soc. Well then, what is it that becomes present or absent when a state is improved and has better treatment and management?
126.9
Alc. To my mind, Socrates, friendship with one another will be there, while hatred and faction will be absent.
126.10
Soc. Now, by friendship do you mean agreement or disagreement?
126.11
Alc. Agreement.
126.12
Soc. And what art is it that causes states to agree about numbers?
126.13
Alc. Arithmetic.
126.14
Soc. And what of individuals? Is it not the same art?
126.15
Alc. Yes.
126.16
Soc. And it makes each single person agree with himself?
126.17
Alc. Yes.
126.18
Soc. And what art makes each of us agree with himself as to which is the longer, a span or a cubit? Is it not mensuration?
126.19
Alc. Of course.
126.20
Soc. And it makes both individuals and states agree with each other?
126.21
Alc. Yes.
126.22
Soc. And what about the balance? Is it not the same here too?
126.23
Alc. It is.
126.24
Soc. Then what is that agreement of which you speak, and about what? And what art secures it? And is it the same in an individual as in a state, when one agrees with oneself and with another?
126.25
Alc. Most likely.
126.26
Soc. Well, what is it? Do not flag in your answers, but do your best to tell me.
126.27
Alc. I suppose I mean the friendship and agreement that you find when a father and mother love their son, and between brother and brother, and husband and wife.
126.28
Soc. Then do you suppose, Alcibiades, that a husband can possibly agree with his wife about woolwork, when he does not understand it, and she does?
126.29
Alc. Oh, no.
126.30
Soc. Nor has he any need, since that is a woman’s pursuit.
126.31
Alc. Yes.
127.1
Soc. Or again, could a woman agree with a man about soldiering, when she has not learnt it?
127.2
Alc. Oh, no.
127.3
Soc. Because, I expect you will say again, that is a man’s affair.
127.4
Alc. I would.
127.5
Soc. Then, by your account, there are some pursuits belonging to women, and some to men?
127.6
Alc. Of course.
127.7
Soc. So in these, at any rate, there is no agreement between men and women.
127.8
Alc. No.
127.9
Soc. And hence no friendship either, if, as we said, friendship is agreement.
127.10
Alc. Apparently not.
127.11
Soc. So women are not loved by men, in so far as they do their own work.
127.12
Alc. It seems not.
127.13
Soc. Nor are men by women, in so far as they do theirs.
127.14
Alc. No.
127.15
Soc. And states, therefore, are not well ordered in so far as each person does his own business?
127.16
Alc. I think they are, Socrates.
127.17
Soc. How can you say that? Without the presence of friendship, which we say must be there if states are well ordered, as otherwise they are not?
127.18
Alc. But it seems to me that friendship arises among them just on that account—that each of the two parties does its own business.
127.19
Soc. It was not so a moment since: but now, what do you mean this time? Does friendship arise where there is no agreement? And is it possible that agreement should arise where some know about the business, but others do not?
127.20
Alc. Impossible.

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